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Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-29 19:21
I posted a photo of WILD horses today from my trip to Wales, and it was removed because someone thinks it is domestic. What is a person to do if there is no recourse? I have had photos removed before (also erroneously) and written to have them reinstated but that has come to be an exercise in futility because no one ever writes back and the photos are never reinstated. Why bother giving someone the option of defending the photo if it isn't going to make a bit of difference!? It is so FRUSTRATING I am contemplating deleting my account and going elsewhere... Can someone please enlighten me?
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-29 19:35
Here is a screenshot of the photo (before it was removed). And it actually had a comment from someone from the UK verifying the WILDNESS of the horses: http://thetrueimage.com/trekearth.gif MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	oanaotilia (1696)	::	2009-10-30 0:45
Hy Michael I don't intend to be against you, but if you asked my opinion, I will try to be as explicit as possible. As far as I know, truly wild horses are extinct in the wild, and only Equus przewalskii is still living in some countries from Asia, like Mongolia. Also, you can see this horse in "wild parks" in many countries from Europe. As you can read on Wikipedia also, in the genus Equus are 7 species, including zebra and wild horses. But if you will go to wild horses, you can read this: "The term "wild horse" is also used colloquially to refer to free roaming herds of feral horses such as the Mustang in the United States, the Brumby in Australia, and many others. These feral horses are untamed members of the domestic horse subspecies (Equus ferus caballus), and should not be confused with the two truly "wild" horse subspecies." It seems that these feral animals have domesticated ancestors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Horse - this is wiki link. http://www.arkive.org/przewalskis-horse/equus-ferus-przewalskii/ http://www.petermaas.nl/extinct/speciesinfo/tarpan.htm In the last link you will find much information’s about different horses and breeds. I hope that I made myself clear and I think is not something with you personally or with your pictures. It is difficult for somebody who never studied biology to understand exactly what is a wild species and a breed/cultivar or any other cultivated form. All the best, Oana
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 1:02
I would just like to say that I live in Wales and as far as I know these horses are wild because nobody owns these horses and they roam all over the mountain range of Snowdonia and that you are very lucky to see them at all, because as long as I have lived here I've only seen a few. And if I'm right there was also part of a BBC programme about these horses where they went to local farms and asked the farmers about them (though I cant remember the name of the programme). I am just saying that as long as I have lived in Wales, I've never seen anybody around these horses and I have even tried to get close to them but as soon as you do they run for it, so to me I would have thought that made these wild horses. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 5:37
Oana, Thanks for your reply. I guess I am wondering if everyone on TrekNature needs to study biology to be able to determine which photos are deemed acceptable to be posted. It almost seems to be the case. It should not be that much work to participate in a site for fun and enjoyment. MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 6:03
Hi again I would just like to post this which i found while researching this on the internet. A small feral population of about 180 animals roams the Carneddau mountains in Snowdonia. The Carneddau mountains are the mountains this photo was taken on and these would be the feral horses they refer to. Hope this information changes your mind and you allow the photo back on. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 6:12
Sion, Thanks for your feedback on this thread. Unfortunately, I think that the powers that be are only interested in PURE-blood PURE-nature-bred nature photos. Animals and plants which have never seen a human until the point at which a TrekNature photographer snaps a photo of it. Wow—I am starting to sound really jaded, aren't I? MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 6:16
I would also like to say that it shouldnt matter whether the ancestors of the animals were domesticated or not, what should matter is if the animals in the photo are wild or not, which they are. I am also a bit confused as to whether you have a problem with the title of the picture, which says wild horses, or if it is the contents of the picture. I personally do not see anything wrong with this picture and I am sure many others would agree. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	oanaotilia (1696)	::	2009-10-30 6:44
Michael Is not about studying biology or not. Indeed, are many more biologists here that are posting pictures with wild animals/plants. And I also know that are many more non biologists that are posting similar pictures with wild species. But the reason that we are here is to "learn about nature through photography" and many could help us in identifying species names. And as you probably noticed until now, there are no pictures with horses, sheep’s, caws, lambs, dogs, cats and so on; For the simple fact that are not wild. And the point is that horse like a pure species, wild species, does anymore exists. This is the point! I really hope that you understand all this, and not consider yourself too oppressed on this site. Oana
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 6:59
Oana, I understand the position but respectfully disagree. It all boils down to one's definition of wild. My definition is something that has grown up without restraint or discipline relying solely on its wits for survival. The definition nurtured by this site is something that is biologically and domestically pure (e.g., if an undomesticated horse happened to have an ancestor that was domesticated at some point then TrekNature doesn't considered it PURE). MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 7:05
As a matter of interest (not that I want my fellow-TN members' photos removed) I did a simple search on TN for horse and found 3 other wild horse photos in the first few pages of results. This is why I feel that removal of photos is arbitrary.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 9:43
Oana I would just like to say that you musnt have look very hard as there are pictures of horses on this website. I have typed in horses in the search box and have found quite a few pictures among which were some mustangs, which you have already said are feral, like the welsh ponies, but you dont seem to have a problem with any of these. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	AnimalExplorer (66)	::	2009-10-30 9:43
Here comes the feral cats and dogs, oh and gold fish and..... get the picture? :)
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 10:09
Paul, That is one extreme, but you are at the other end of the spectrum. Soon, you'll have to be able to prove animal ancestry to get a photo to stick here. Get the picture? MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 10:26
Hi again One more thing I would like to add: Definition of wild: Occurring, growing, or living in a natural state; not domesticated, cultivated, or tamed. Now because I live in the Carneddau mountain area in Snowdonia I know that this is how these horses live so once again I am struggling to see the problem with this picture. Just because biologically they are not WILD horses, does not mean they cant be horses that live in a natural state; not domesticated, cultivated or tamed. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	pirate (3215)	::	2009-10-30 10:37
Hi Michael funny topic, that's what I thought when reading these lines many people do not know the difference between feral an wild, here on TN we are learning about nature, but only if one is willing to listen (thanks to animal explorer you should understand what is meant by feral) the topic is no more funny when I am reading on the other forum (photography) by the same author: "Sounds almost neo-nazi—only Aryan nature photos are accepted." maybe you better leave the place michael Tom
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 10:47
At first I wasn't going to dignify Tom's comment with a response, but I decide to copy a line from the TOS (which mentions NOTHING about feral animals BTW): "Certain types of photos are prohibited on TrekNature and will be removed: Photographs of domestic animals. Photos of wildlife in captivity (game parks, zoos) are allowed, but it is strongly recommend that these shots should show little or no trace of the enclosures or cages keeping these animals inside. My feral horse photo is more natural than an animal in captivity.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	AnimalExplorer (66)	::	2009-10-30 10:54
Hello MP, Even though those horse shots that you posted are living in a wild state they were bred by man at one point in time to have different physical attributes & characteristics that are not natural without mans intervention verses the Przewalski's Horse which is the oldest true living wild species of horses. Wikpedia: The Przewalski's Horse is considered the only remaining truly wild "horse" in the world and may be the closest living wild relative of the domesticated horse, Equus caballus. There are still a number of other wild equines, including three species of zebra and various subspecies of the African wild ass, onager and kiang. I got the picture, I don't think you did. ;) Paul :)
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 10:55
This article was just sent to me by SRANJAN cited from the BBC: ::: Carneddau wild ponies Britain's only wild horses can be found on the Carneddau mountains - for now. Gareth Jones, secretary of Carneddau Ponies, describes how they've fought to protect their future. The Carneddau ponies are some of the wildest animals in Britain. They aren't treated with any medication and are completely organic. They've been here since the age of the Celts. The ponies are vital for the ecology of the mountains. For example, there's a colony of choughs who feed off the insects found in the ponies' dung. Three years ago the European Union passed a law that all such animals had to have a passport and be tagged. This costs £50 per animal, and at that time the ponies were only worth around £15 each so it just wasn't going to be financially viable for us to keep protecting them. Then seven local farmers got together, managed to secure Objective One funding and set up the Carneddau Ponies Association to fund and carry out this work. When you see a 'Welsh Section A: ponies' class in an agricultural show, you'd be able to trace their bloodline back to the original stock in the Carneddau. Such ponies have vanished from all other mountain ranges in the UK and if you got rid of ours, you'd never get them back. Someone tried to introduce a pony from Anglesey back onto the mountains, but it died - they just can't survive. They live in families, like other wild animals. Some stallions do go from group to group trying to steal each other's mares - you'll see them fighting sometimes during the spring. Not many people are aware that the mountains of North Wales only look like they do because of the work of the farmers. Some think we don't care about nature, but we've looked after this rare breed for generations. My family have looked after them for over 300 years. My great grandfather was a bit of a horse dealer and sold lots of them to the Government or to coal mines during the First World War. My father sold some to an American dealer who wanted to set up a herd there. Just recently, a London businesswoman read about us in a magazine and bought a foal and mare. She used to come to North Wales on holiday as a child and always loved the ponies, so now the foal will be shown in competitions and the mare will be allowed to live wild. Usually we sell them as a family. We've just sold 17 to a man in Ireland who wants to try and introduce them to the mountains there. Our main work is in bringing them down from the mountains each August. This isn't something you could do unless you knew every nook and cranny of the mountains like we do, being born and brought up here. This year, we're going to keep some of the foals for a year and let people sponsor and name them. This way we may not need funding in the future and the sponsors will know they've helped secure the future of these beautiful animals. We also want them classed as a rare breed, which would allow us to sell a group on one passport instead of individually. If all this is done, then hopefully the wild ponies of the Carneddau will be safe for years to come.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 11:06
Hi once again I am just puzzled as why, just because the horses ancestors 'MAY' have been domesticated, that should make any difference to how wild the horse is now. I can understand where you are coming from with the dogs and cats, but surely horses are different as they haven't all been breed especially for domesticated use, maybe this doesn't apply to all horses like ones breed for racing but it certainly applies to these, and then gone feral. I would also like to say how petty I think this discussion is because you all seem to be getting worked up over some horses which are obviously living in the wild and that I would think fall under the definition of wild that I posted earlier. Surely the object of this site is to learn and enjoy nature through photographs and that removing a photo of an animal that 'COULD' be feral is taking the rules and 'GUIDELINES' to seriously. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	pirate (3215)	::	2009-10-30 11:33
hi again thanks michael for pointing out that all these horses are tagged with a microchip, have a passport and are traded as a rare breed of domestic animal ;-) did you know that there is indeed not only a biodiversity crisis in wild animals and plants but also in domestic animals and food plants? but this is just not the topic of TN tom
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 11:34
Hi again Would also like to post one more thing regarding the FERAL subject: 'Nor should "feral" be used to describe a population of a species which although descended from a domesticated population has severed itself from dependence on humans and lived independently in the wild for a long period.' I think now that this should prove that these are wild horses and end this discussion. Finally. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 11:37
Alright. I am putting this thread to rest for good. I found out the name of these WILD HORSES is Przewalski's Horse. Here is the clincher—an exerpt from the Wikipedia article: Most "wild" horses today, such as the American Mustang or the Australian Brumby, are actually feral horses descended from domesticated animals that escaped and adapted to life in the wild. In contrast, Przewalski's Horse has never been successfully domesticated and remains a truly wild animal today. sigh now can I have my photo back?
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 11:39
"Three animals from this program live in a 12 acre (5 hectare) paddock in the Clocaenog Forest in North Wales, UK, on the site of a former Neolithic or Iron Age settlement. They were introduced there in 2004. The Forestry Commission hopes they will help recreate scenes from the Iron Age when horses similar to these roamed Britain freely." —Forestry Commission. 2004. FC Wales turns clock back thousands of years with 'wild' solution to looking after ancient forest site. News release, No: 7001, 16 September 2004.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	pirate (3215)	::	2009-10-30 11:46
LOL did you compare your ponies to a Przeswalski's horse?
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 11:53
No, I couldn't get close enough to compare them. Although it would have been easier than spending a day in TN Forum Hell. But the net result is positive even if my photo is not reinstated: 1. I met some new people. 2. Google is awesome. 2. I learned more than I ever wanted to know about the pedigree of various equine species. MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 12:00
LOL Well said Michael.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	AnimalExplorer (66)	::	2009-10-30 12:02
Genetically altered by selective breeding by man's intervention to me sounds..well you know unnatural. Maybe we can breed cheetahs to display perfect Isosceles triangles on their pelage and release them into the wild and after a few generations we can call them real wild tritahs. I'm up for it.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 12:12
I think that there you have gone to extreme and obviously dont know how these animals were treated in Wales. They were only a few of these kept by farmers and they were used to, now you'll be surprised, to keep there land properly as they would eat the weeds and keep the grass to an acceptable level. Now I am not claiming to be an expert on farming but I dont think that you need to specially breed horses to eat, but dont quote me on that. But know these horses have been living wild for at least the last 70-100 years, so I think that may have been long enough for natural selection to once again take place. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-10-30 12:16
[to be read with a Monty Python accent.] Can I just say that this is the 30th post on this thread?
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-30 15:05
Yes and lets hope its the last...oh to late :D
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-10-31 11:53
Hi once again, I am just wondering now that if this picture of the horses will be allowed back on or if you are just going to leave it removed? Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	eqshannon (27959)	::	2009-11-01 18:18
I too wonder. It is obvious via a net search that these are at best wild horse..and feral...as are the Mustangs in Nevada...it got so bad that nuts were shooting them from helicopters until a rescue society moved in and now it takes a long time to manage them if one wants to adopt and knows what the heck they are doing...as the moderator obviously did not.....I say if they are down..post them again. And if you have any problems...a small group of us can help you with Internet Brands (owners of all T- Sites) if you chose. Bob Shannon NPPA -retired and etc..and etc...and no more scooter yet so maybe retired for good.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-02 9:43
My shot "FALL AND FALLEN" from yesterday was removed as well. It showed a gorgeous Arlington Oak in gorgeous color with many leaves on the ground. I really don't get this... See for yourself. MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-11-02 10:11
Hi Michael, I cant believe that it was removed, and i am pretty sure that is not a garden plant, its a bit too big. I think someone might have something against you michael, thats my best guest. Sorry about this removel. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-02 10:43
I think that I would not mind having photos deleted if only the powers that be would respond to my submissions to have them reinstated. I can live with agreeing to disagree on what is the nature of "Nature" photography. What I can't abide is silence from the powers that be...
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	pirate (3215)	::	2009-11-02 12:49
Sorry Michael your link is empty right now, maybe you should post the picture on trekearth and people can check what was wrong with it for TN cheers tom
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-02 13:01
The candid lack of ability (on the part of some here) to give the benefit of the doubt is truly staggering.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	SunToucher (10177)	::	2009-11-03 4:01
Mike, If you disagree with the decision made by the admin or moderator, contact the admin directly i.o. making it into a forum post. This is much more effective. The e-mail is somewhere in the about section. regards, Niek
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-03 5:44
Thanks for the info, Niek. I will look into it. MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-03 10:05
This is almost funny. Now my other two oaks have disappeared. Why just take 1 or 2 at a time, why not remove the whole lot. That would be exciting!
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	oanaotilia (1696)	::	2009-11-03 10:54
Hy Michael I think that if you want to still have pictures here it would be better to exclude as much as possible the human factor from your pictures. Or maybe post them on TL or TE and keep for this site only those images only with plant/animal species. And believe me, if you don't know what it is, are many here that could help you. All we are glad to help and to learn new things. All the best, Oana
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-03 11:01
Granted there was a person in today's photo off to the side who I should have cropped out, but the other photo only had the tree and gravestones. Am I to understand that I can't have anything man-made in the photo at all? If that is the case, half of the photos on TrekNature should be removed. I still feel as though photo removal is arbitrary here...
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-06 13:57
Just when I thought I might go a few days without a photo removal, my faith in the powers that be has been rekindled: Your photo titled, "Bona Fide Wild Animal˜Fox" (photo222218.htm) seems to violate the TrekNature terms of service and therefore has been inactivated. The reason is: Excessive Post Processing I have a new mission here: To see how many different reasons there are to have one's photo removed. Should be fun.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-19 11:02
I am preparing to post the photo again tomorrow with the correct label so no one is under any delusions as to the wildness of these horses. Thanks everyone for your feedback here in the forums.
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-11-19 11:19
Hi Michael, Good to hear you are going to post the image back on and I hope that this time it is not removed. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-20 5:55
The photo is up again: http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo223218.htm MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-24 10:07
It was an act of purist optimism to think that it would last, because they have taken my wild horse photo down again. This is the form to request that the photo be reinstated. This is a screenshot of the page before the photo was removed. Discouraged & disheartened, MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-11-24 10:36
I can't believe these were taken off again. It is quite upsetting that these 'WILD' horses are not allowed on the website. Sorry about the news Michael Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-11-24 10:48
Hi Michael, Its upsetting that this photo of WILD horses isn't allowed to be on. Sorry about the news Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	irishprophet25 (229)	::	2009-11-24 10:49
Sorry about the double post. My internet was playing up and I didn't think the first one sent. Sion
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-25 19:33
Check out my new profile photo. http://www.treknature.com/members/mporterf/ I won't even be surprised if they find a way to delete that. MP
Re: Erroneous removal of photos...	mporterf (417)	::	2009-11-25 19:34
Check out my new profile photo. http://www.treknature.com/members/mporterf/ I won't even be surprised if they find a way to delete that. MP

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