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Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-26 23:37
I have seen very little discussion on the issues of plagerism and/or copyright...

Does anyone have any concerns / comments on these issues as they pertain to the Trek-sites...
and in particular here on TrekNature?

Jay
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-26 23:42
Plagiarism is different from copyright infringement. While both terms may apply to a particular act, they emphasize different aspects of the transgression.

Plagerism: per Wiki


Copyright infringement (or copyright violation): per Wiki
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism daveman Silver Star Critiquer/Silver Note Writer [C: 24 W: 2 N: 44] (172)::2007-04-27 2:02
Among intellectual circles, plagarism is severely punished, perhaps even more than copyright infringement. Therefore I have been a little surprised to occasionally find instances when individuals post photos that aren't their own. I've never seen this happen on Treknature sites, but I suspect it is more common than one would expect. On one occasion on a different site I was surprised to discover a photo taken by the Cassini spacecraft, posted by an individual who considered it his own. He flatly refused to acknowledge that he didn't take the photo, even though only a robot could have done it. There were boistrous accolades from some, who didn't seem to understand that no human had ever been there. I was even more surprised to discover that the site managers refused to adjudicate and the photo still remains. To me it is a sad and partly embarrassing statement about the quality of education across the world.

Dave
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-27 2:12
"...a photo taken by the Cassini spacecraft, posted by an individual who considered it his own..."


I am still rolling on the floor! More after I regain control! Jay
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-27 2:38
"" I've never seen this happen on Treknature sites, ... ""

Perhaps on
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/North_America/Canada/photo72402.htm
where we see:
abtinn (0) [2006-11-18 2:20] [Reply]
I have the same photo! so amazing .
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Iran/photo29508.htm
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism CaptiveLight Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 435 W: 61 N: 232] (969)::2007-04-27 3:56
I previously removed all my images from TN due to the fact that a fair number had been borrowed by other sites, either copied from TN or linked to TN. I even found a copy of a Caracal Lynx picture, with the cat asleep on a tree, and with added photoshop blood, advertising a US hunting company. Most people have been ok about removing the images once discovered... the only exception being an online newspaper based in Iran who have so far simply not responded. People seem to think it's ok to borrow images off the internet.
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Hil Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 696 W: 13 N: 1407] (5035)::2007-04-27 4:32
I wonder if it happens much where people post images on TN that are not their own, I once seen the classic picture of the Donkey that is left dangling in the air by a overloaded cart, posted on here as someones first post, I couldn't believe that somebody actually thought we hadn't seen it a thousand times before.
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism balkantrek (0)::2007-04-27 5:51
I found a website using several landscape shots that were mine. They finally agreed to remove them when I pointed out that the figure posed in the foreground to give scale to the scene was actually my wife! However, they were still pretty indignant and unappologetic about having used them in the first place without my permission, saying that I should have been "flattered" that they chose to use my photos.

I know someone else who has recently had their photos used without permission on other websites, they have responded by not only asking the offending website to remove the images, but by sending them an invoice for a hefty amount plus VAT for the use of the pictures, backed up with a solicitor's letter stating that if the fees are not paid within 30 days then they will be charged extra for another months use of the photos, and will as be taken to court. Apparently the courts (in the UK at least) are starting to crack down on this type of internet copyright infringement as it is becoming so rife.
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-27 13:03
This thread has taken off into a direction I had not expected.

Let me throw in the other leg of the fork in the road:

What about plagerism and / or copyright infringements
in Notes that go with photos, right here on TrekNature?

Attributing material we "borrow" to its source is not just
good manners, I believe it is also a requirement to avoid
problems, not?
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Shoot_Score Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 445 W: 302 N: 670] (2376)::2007-04-27 13:16
This thread has taken off into a direction I had not expected.

Let me throw in the other leg of the fork in the road:

What about plagerism and / or copyright infringements
in Notes that go with photos, right here on TrekNature?

Attributing material we "borrow" to its source is not just
good manners, I believe it is also a requirement to avoid
problems, not?
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism cuckooroller Gold Star Critiquer [C: 185 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-15 8:12
Well Dave,

Sadly we now have a shining example of plagiarism on TrekNature.

The User = subroto (SUBROTO MUKHERJEE), if we can believe this name that is.

The admin of TrekNature has been notified, as well as one of the Photographers whose works this joker has been lifting. So far, the admin has gotten back to neither of us, but maybe we need to give them another day on it.

The user should be, at the least, banned and put up to public derision.

A Preliminary List of surely, and probably, pilfered photos that this user is passing off as his own. It probably would have behooved this particular user to at least have given plausible locations of these birds. I would have found him out anyway because some of them I have seen before.

Certainly Stolen:
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/North_America/United_States/photo110922.htm
Reason – I am an expert in Philippines birds. I reviewed personally this photo for the true photographer Romy Ocon. The same photo with copyright (here cropped out) is available on his site.
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Asia/India/photo108269.htm
Reason – stolen from the same Photographer as above




Suspect Photos:
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/North_America/United_States/photo110179.htm
Reason – the bird does not range in California
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Asia/India/photo108293.htm
Reason – I am not expert only on Philippine birds. This one, I mean come on – this is a Rose-breasted Grosbeak adult male, and the kicker, supposedly shot in West Bengal, India.
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Asia/India/photo107810.htm
Reason – Yes folks, we can see everyday in West Bengal a Brown Thrasher ranging in Canada, USA, and Mexico.



Steve
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2385 W: 237 N: 3033] (11162)::2007-05-15 9:56
Hi Steve,
This is the most rudes thing I've seen so far. Even the owner commented and he never responded. I do hope this person deletes all his stolen photos or comes with hard proof that the photos are his. I've reported the photos mentioned.

I also hope that Robert or Adam will take action to this quickly.

Niek
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2385 W: 237 N: 3033] (11162)::2007-05-15 10:08
BTW, did you notice that he uses a point and shoot camera and a prime lens? I am sure that won't fit. So it looks like there are many more photos that he stole from others.
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism cuckooroller Gold Star Critiquer [C: 185 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-15 11:09
Thanks Niek,
I am afraid that I am an abysmal photographer. Hopefully, after retirement I can learn - the desire is there, not the time. I came into this only because I know what I am looking at when it comes to birds. I just happened to recognise the photo having once reviewed the ID.

Hopefully, the two people you mention as being associated with TrekNature will respond. The only e-mail that I could find for contacting the site was one intended for reporting apparently only scurrilous language in the threads, something like [email protected] I think. It may not be the correct e-mail, but I found no others.

Steve
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2385 W: 237 N: 3033] (11162)::2007-05-15 12:18
Hi Steve,
That is the correct e-mail. It will end up on Adam Silverman's desk, the owner of the trek sites. You can always click the report option on the left of each photo.

I hope this gets solved urgently.

Thanks for pointing it out to us.

Niek
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2385 W: 237 N: 3033] (11162)::2007-05-15 12:25
Hi Steve,
Just noticed that the problem has been solved. The account is deleted.

Niek
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism cuckooroller Gold Star Critiquer [C: 185 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-15 12:43
Niek,

Thanks for getting back on this. We have already seen (Romy and I) that the implicated user account has now been disabled. That was fast, and I commend those involved in their fast action. It is as it should be in these unpleasant cases...

Steve
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism claudine Gold Star Critiquer [C: 2486 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-17 23:12
Tonight, I had to remove many of my picks from this site as I realized that they were way too easy to download in quite good quality and to be used by a tierce party.

One of my squirrel's pictures was found in very good resolution on a Russian internet Joke's sharing site and was downloaded from here… So for the moment, I would just abstain myself to post here...

Claudine
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2385 W: 237 N: 3033] (11162)::2007-05-18 16:43
Hi Claudine,
I am really sorry to hear that. Were you able to take any action against that site? I do hope that you will stay with us and keep posting the lovely photos.

Niek
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism Hil Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 696 W: 13 N: 1407] (5035)::2007-05-18 17:17
Hi Claudine,

I agree totally with Niek, sorry to find out this has been happening to your shots and I hope you will stay with the site, I realise you must be really upset as you normally are so positive about the problems we have on the site, I think this must happen with all sites and I don't know how it can be stopped. It will be really sad not to see your lovely photos and i hope something can be done.

Hil
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism claudine Gold Star Critiquer [C: 2486 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-18 17:19
Thanks Niek,

If my knowledge, it happened two times on two different Russian sites but I wonder how many times it happened elsewhere without I knew it? There was no way I could contact those person as I'm not very good in Russian :) and that I didn't see anywhere to write to somebody...

Dust has settled down since yesterday and I feel sad about this idea of not posting here anymore... I am thinking about some kind of a solution... I won't repeat all that I answered to Snowfalken in the Photos forum but if you are interested, here's the link to this discussion:

http://www.treknature.com/read.php?f=2&t=74709&m=95587

I thank for your kind words and I wish you a nice weekend,

Claudine
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism claudine Gold Star Critiquer [C: 2486 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-19 6:54
Thank you Hill.

I thought that we posted our reply almost at the same time yesterday so I didn't see it before replying to Niek. I thank you for kind words. I am not really upset; in fact I'm more deceived and sad than anything else. I know that one can't download a picture in "good" quality when not being a member here. So this is what disturbed me the most and I'm sure that there is a way to fix this problem but are the site owners willing to do it? As I said to Niek, there are more explanations about this situation here:

http://www.treknature.com/read.php?f=2&t=74709&m=95535

Thanks again and keep well :)
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism loot Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 5524 W: 722 N: 4163] (11276)::2007-05-19 11:34
Hi Claudine

With all due respect, I don't know where you got these facts from. The fact is that anybody, whether the person is a member or not, can download any photo from TN. Actually that is possible on most sites on the Internet. Even those sites that seems to be secure and blocks you when you right click on a photo. It is purely a matter of 'drag & drop' in that instance. So, it does not matter where you take your photos, in most cases it would still be downloadable by anybody.

A watermark is probably the only real solution, but I would bet that possibly the majority of members would not want their photos mutilated by an ugly watermark across the face of the photo. A test for this is to only take note how many times (especially in the earlier days of TN) a photographer has been criticised for writing his/her name or the title directly on too the photo rather than inside a frame. A watermark is fine on those stock sites that displays a photo purely for advertising reasons to be able to sell the photo, but a serious nature site such as TrekNature where the visual appreciation of the photo is the desired outcome (not a sale) it is not advisable to place an ugly watermark on a photo.

The final decision is yours, whether you want to post photos to the net given the circumstances, or do you want to withhold your material. Personally I have made a decision that I will live with the risk. If it does happen and I find out about it, I would take whatever steps needed to remedy the situation. If it does happen and I do not find out about it, well, who cares. Yes, there is no elation in knowing that it does happen, but one needs to clear out in your own mind how sharing or how rigid you are willing to be concerning this issue.

It is not the fault of TrekNature (and please, I did not say that anybody said so), but this is a human nature issue because whenever there is something to be gained for free without having the need to work for it and there is humans around, you will have theft.

Frankly, it is like sharing a smiling in public. If you are scared that somebody whom the smile was not intended for might benefit or receive some warmth because of it, then don't smile in public. I know it's maybe not such a good example, but be forbearing with me as it is the best one I can think of for the moment (chuckle).

I really hope you will arrive at a positive conclusion and that we will still see lots of your lovely photos here on TrekNature.

Friendly regards
Loot
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism cuckooroller Gold Star Critiquer [C: 185 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-19 14:33
Hi Loot,

Yes, I totally agree with all you have said.

Claudine, it is certainly a matter of choice. It is not the fault of the sites. The problems in my view is not that people can download the photos from just about anywhere, even from photo selling sites they can download the comps if they register, and disabling the right-click deters only those that don't know what they heck they are doing - just a click away for me if I want to do a photo capture, so the real problem is what people do with the photos after they download them. Personally, I have an absolutely obscenely large photodatabase mostly not my photos. However, I use them only as a construct for bird identifications. I do not share them, and they stay exactly where they are on my HDD.

There is reason to take heart however. Many people because of their familiarity with what is on the web can many times root out the cheaters, as I did with Romy's picks. It is certainly not OK to benefit from other peoples photos as that user had done. So, Loot is right on - it is a question of human nature...
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism claudine Gold Star Critiquer [C: 2486 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-19 18:06
Hello Loot,

Thanks for this reply. In fact, if you want to download the highest resolution of a picture posted on TN, you have to be logged in. Do the test, you’ll see… If you are not connected, the picture you'll download will be very small and that's OK with me. The problem is that members can download pictures to do some WS at the same resolution they were posted originally and some bad intentioned people use this privilege for other purposes. How many people is a member here without having any picture on line?

When I mentioned a watermark, I was talking about those pictures you downloaded when you are logged in and not those in the gallery of course as this is not in the spirit and mandate of this site. I don't know much about this subject but this is a solution that crossed my mind. I don’t even know if it is possible or if it is complicated but anyway; I think that this is more a personal problem than one from this site as I decided to sell some of my pictures; if I didn’t, it would not bother me I guess :) Regards,

Claudine
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism loot Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 5524 W: 722 N: 4163] (11276)::2007-05-20 2:44
Believe me Claudia (because it's true)...

If you are a member that is logged-on via your password, or if you are a member that is not logged-on via your password, or if you are merely a visitor to TN and do not have a password, you can still download any photo at the size it was originally uploaded on to TN. Example, if you posted a photo at maximum 800x800 pixels and 200kB anyone can download that photo at maximum 800x800 pixels and 200kB. I have done so with thousands of photos I have downloaded to my hard drive for personal use and reference. The same reasons as Steve Pryor (cuckooroller) has mentioned.

There is nothing in the software of the TN site (and again this is true to most Internet sites) that will prohibit me from downloading any photo at the size it is stored on the specific site. If I can view it on my monitor (at whatever size it was uploaded) then I can download it at that same size as well.

Regards
Loot
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism loot Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 5524 W: 722 N: 4163] (11276)::2007-05-20 2:46
Sorry, Claudine not Claudia. (Just a little typo gremlin.)
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism claudine Gold Star Critiquer [C: 2486 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2007-05-20 14:37
Thanks for those specifications Loot. For an unknown reason, it seems to have worked differently with those I have tried so far but you must be right... :) See you,
Claudine
PS No problem about calling me Claudia ;)
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism bouncer1979 (16)::2012-07-10 23:51
Dear all

i was not aware of this post which i have recently known off.
i was really ashamed of my deeds done by me 5 years back for which i have repented a lot and as soon as i saw a post on dpreview about this from the photographer mr Romy from philipines i have publicly apologised for the same. his screen name is liquidstone

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=36160503
I have repented for the past 5 years and have worked dedicatedly toward the art of photography.
here is my link of work done with dedication.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/subroto1979/

hope everyone can forgive me for that unintended and immature work.

Warm regards
Re: Copyrights drchoneydew Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 162 W: 38 N: 475] (3501)::2012-07-11 11:38
Say if you see your photo with the C symbol, your name, and its linked back to here in their Blog.

They never asked for permission; personally, I was a little shocked but didn't mind it but curious, would you view this as in infringement?

Brenda
Re: Copyrights navnith Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Note Writer [C: 125 W: 0 N: 158] (1323)::2012-07-19 7:30
Trek Nature has restricted postings to 200 kb.Is it possible for some body to increase the size of the photograph.If so then plagiarism becomes more dangerous.

navnith
Re: Copyrights corjan3 Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 430 W: 49 N: 964] (4707)::2012-08-19 8:02
Yes, it is possible to increase by upsizing the photo. How well it will work for them I do not know. However, fact is - plagiarism is theft. It is an intellectual crime that has become a worldwide problem. For example, last year Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, the then Minister of Defence of Germany, was stripped of the Ph.D. that he "earned" through plagiarism. He is now referred to as Dr Googleberg - e-mail available on request. And the stupid thing is that his supervisor and external examiners are accused of having messed up his life under the title "When the assessment system fails the student". Totally crazy. As an academic I am forever combating plagiarism amongst my students ... and what a battle! We have many Dr Googlebergs here on TN. For example, if one harvests information from anywhere and do not give proper and appropriate recognition with citing and referencing, and so give the impression in one's note that one has intellectual ownership of that knowledge, one is a cheat and a liar and a thief. Pity that the system here does not drastically act against them as they are well aware that it happens very often. I could pull out an example right now. Arrogance annihilates virtue without fail and plagiarism does too.
Re: Copyrights rubyfantacy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Note Writer [C: 84 W: 1 N: 417] (2627)::2012-08-19 15:16
Dear Neels,

i believe there's nothing called half-honest or partly-honest. either you are honest, or dishonest. simple.

i know you are a bit crazy about people using information in their notes and not mentioning the source. it had been going on for a long time.
i hope as a member, i too can share my views.

look Neels, if you take a flower from someone's garden without their permission and keep it in your vase, that's wrong. similarly, if you take a flower from someone's garden, keep it in your vase and tell people "i have taken this flower from that fellow's garden", even then it's wrong. because in both the cases, you have 'stolen', actually.

most of us do copy information from Wikipedia and/ or other potential sources. we have mentioned the source? that doesn't make any sense. we ARE still stealing. because we have not taken the permission BEFORE using the information. so when we see some of us not mentioning the source, it doesn't make them.. in any way.. worse than us. right?

judging people in the shades of black-and-white, now-a-days, is not that simple as it used to be. i too, being an academic, can understand your concern. but chill. we mention a source, or we don't.. that's not important. important is, our intention. are we copying a source just to explain and tell stories about the subject of our photograph? or we are copying an information and declaring "it's mine" by singing our name at the end (say for example)?

i believe, NONE OF THE MEMBERS here have ever used a piece of information from Wikipedia (say), and 'declared' that it was his/ her.

so relax Neels. as long as the intention is not bad, we are not bad. trust me :)

Ruby
Re: Copyrights corjan3 Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 430 W: 49 N: 964] (4707)::2012-08-19 17:21
Hello Ruby,
I did not address my comments at you, so why make it a personal matter? Whatever, I do not blame you for thinking that the content of the first four paragraphs of your message are informative to me. Fact is, I have read material here that was copied verbatim from a website, probably more than one, that specifically prohibits that. It is not about declaring intellectual ownership as it goes without saying that, unless appropriately otherwise stated by citing and referencing, information appearing under one's name portrays it as one's own. As an academic I am sure you know that, apart from dissertations and theses and perhaps some other category of scientific work, authors of papers in scientific publications do not "declare" their intellectual ownership but that does not render them immune should they commit plagiarism. It is no excuse. However, I rest my case and I do not intend pursuing the matter further here. This is not an academic venue anyway, so why worry?
Best wishes.
Neels

PS: By the way, the phrase " ... a bit crazy ... " is inappropriate. "Obsessed" would be more accurate :)
Re: Copyrights rubyfantacy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Note Writer [C: 84 W: 1 N: 417] (2627)::2012-08-19 19:36
Hello Neels,

you got me wrong. you definitely didn't make your comments at me :)
[how could you? i am always on the safe side. i do steal, but intellectually mention from whom i have stolen. so, am a good girl!]

but you had participated in an open discussion, right?
so anyone was free to share their views on that too.

i don't think so many people here, in this thread, are discussing any personal matter. it's all about just a 'topic' and our concerns/ views related to that.

if Steve could address Dave, Niek could address Steve, Steve could address Niek, Niek could address Claudine...
i thought i too could address you. especially, when i had to discuss on your part of comments... no bad intention, trust me!
but if addressing you had been making the discussion a 'personal matter', i wonder how, then am sorry.

but even if i don't address you, my views and analysis remain at the same place only. either you go to the field, do research and find out your own part of information on the subject of your photograph, or you DO NOT COPY. simple.

copying an information WITHOUT permission (though declaring the source), is not a virtue, but still a stealing (to use your word). in that case, i, you and all of us who use others' information only, and hence, are dishonest.

but there's a problem. all of us do not have time to go to field and research on each and every subject. we even can't wait for the lengthy process of getting permission from the websites/ persons under concern. in that case we just copy. and since soooo many of us do that, there is no strict rule any more. and hence the very word 'plagiarism' ultimately is defined by the basic word 'intention'.

that's what i had told in those so called 'first four paragraphs'.

what did you say? "I do not blame you for thinking that the content of the first four paragraphs of your message are informative to me."??? God, Neels! :D

take care :)
smile

Ruby



PS: and sorry for that 'a bit crazy' phrase. to me it had the same implication as yours 'obsessed'. no sweat :):)

ONE MORE THING. in the vast world of copyright, internet & collecting information, there is a term called 'fair use'. see, again the coming back to my point: 'Intention'.
Re: Copyrights navnith Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Note Writer [C: 125 W: 0 N: 158] (1323)::2012-08-23 7:53
I feel we are digressing from the main topic ie photo plagiarism.One acn not compare it or dilute this crime with that of quoting notes from Wikipedia,"a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit".
navnith
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism DanielBarker Silver Workshop Editor [C: 0 W: 0 N: 0] (68)::2012-10-16 0:56
Best thing is to add a watermark to all photos
Re: Copyrights and Plagerism drchoneydew Gold Star Critiquer/Silver Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 162 W: 38 N: 475] (3501)::2012-10-16 10:58
How do you make one? the watermark...and do you really think its necessary???? Really?